Smith Genealogy Notes, Vermilion Co., IL

Hi Catherine:

I am descended from: Joseph Smith, b. 1787 in England, married to Ann Brook. From them descended Thomas, Giles, Sarah, Martha, John, etc. There were 16 in all. My line goes down through Joseph and Ann's daughter Sarah Smith who married Nelson Moore. My line ALSO goes down through Joseph and Ann's son John, because of cousins marrying cousins a bit further down the line, which I have written below.

Mine goes like this (I'm only naming the children of Joseph Smith and Ann Brooks that I descend from in this list):

Joseph Smith and Ann Brooks Children:

John Smith, b. 1824 North Western Oxfordshire England

Sarah Smith, b. 1830, also England.

~

John Smith married Adeline Moore. One of their sons was Alvin George Smith.

Now jump to Sarah Smith, John's sister.

Sarah Smith married Nelson Moore. They had a daughter, Martha Moore (my g-g-grandmother).

Martha married Reuben Young. They had a daughter named Florence Eliza Young. Florence was my g-grandmother.

Florence Eliza Young married Alvin George Smith up there, the son of John Smith and Adeline Moore!

So here the family tree merges for me, 2nd cousins marry, and so I am descended from both John and Sarah, children of Joseph and Ann. Then Florence Eliza Young and Alvin George Smith had a daughter, Aleen Jane Berry, and this is my grandmother.

As for Sarah Smith my g-g-g-grandmother, I've got her marriage license to Nelson Moore, also with a permission slip signed by Joseph Smith in which he states that she is his daughter and he gives his permission, etc.

I've been trying to trace back exactly where they came from in England, but only had an old family history written by my grandmother who said that Joseph's son John Smith (m. Adeline Moore), was born in North Western Oxfordshire Feb. 5, 1824 and that he was one of 16 children that Joseph eventually had.

So I wasn't sure if it was only that Joseph and Ann had just lived there briefly around the time that John was born, or if they were also from that area. I'm still working on that one, and found some great info on your site!

When John grew up he was an excellent businessman, amassed a pretty hefty fortune in land and livestock, and he eloped with Adeline Moore on a mule to a neighboring county (Ford, if I remember right, I've got their marriage certificate too) and then they came back and settled down in Marysville. I've got some historical writings about him in Gazettes from that time, and some from my grandmother also.

Joseph Smith, the patriarch, John's and Sarah's father, was married twice in England and had a total of 14 children altogether, and taught them all to swim before they immigrated, according to the family story. :-)

I know he was married to Ann Brooks both before and after their arrival in the US and that Ann was at least mother to both Sarah and John, because I have her in family history as John's mother 10 years before they sailed, and Ann was still married to Joseph (John's father) when they sailed. So by then Sarah was only 4, so she was born after John but before they sailed, so Ann has to be her mother too.

I've got them all on the 1840, 1850, and 1860 census for Vermilion County.

By 1870 I still have Sarah and a couple of her children on the census, but no Nelson Moore at that point, so he died sometime between 1860 and 1870, or they may have divorced.

It is POSSIBLE that Sarah married much later to a man who had the last name of Davis, because that is Sarah's last name on her daughter Martha Moore's marriage license to Reuben Young where it asks Martha's mother's name.

As for Joseph, Sarah's father, he and Ann were on the 1850 Census, with him and four of their remaining children (Elizabeth, 25 Susan, 18 William, 16 and Emma, 11). At that time Joseph was 63 and Ann was 53.

When they came to the US in 1834, they came to the port of NY, and they lived there in NY until 1836 when they moved to Vermilion County.

I've also got most of them on a ship coming from London, England, called the Ship Thomas Wallace July 23, 1834. I cannot find either Sarah (who was 4 then) or her father Joseph on this voyage, so they may have come earlier, or perhaps some children came then, and some later. Maybe Joseph made multiple trips.

There were so many children, it's possible. I hadn't checked for Abraham Mann either, because all I knew about him was that John Smith had worked for him in Vermilion County. I have a Joseph Smith on a ship a year or so earlier who fits, but let me give you the ship list with the most on it right now, from July 23, 1834: (note, we are not at all sure if this is our Smith family on this ship)

Database: New York, 1820-1850 Passenger and Immigration Lists

Name ~ Arrival Date ~ Age ~ Gender ~ Port of Departure ~ Place of Origin Ship

Ann Smith Jul 23, 1834 39 F London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1795

Anna Smith Jul 23, 1834 39 F London England Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1795

James Smith Jul 23, 1834 52 M London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1782

Thomas Smith Jul 23, 1834 39 M London England Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1795

Mary Smith Jul 23, 1834 36 F London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1798

Elizabeth Smith Jul 23, 1834 7 F London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1827

Jane Smith Jul 23, 1834 16 F London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1818

John Smith Jul 23, 1834 3 M London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1831

Joseph Smith Jul 23, 1834 11 M London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1823

Martha Smith Jul 23, 1834 0 F London Great Britain Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1833/34?

Mary Smith Jul 23, 1834 5 F London England Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1829

Thomas Smith Jul 23, 1834 13 M London England Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1821

William Smith Jul 23, 1834 9 M London England Ship Thomas Wallace ~ b. 1825

I'm Julia Ann Denton, (m. McCarty), my mother was Ann Elizabeth Berry, b. 1941 (m. Dean Leon Denton), Ann's mother was Aleen Jane Smith, b. 1912 (m. Julian Wm. Berry), Aleen's mother was Florence Eliza Young b. 1892 (m. Alvin George Smith, grandson of Joseph Smith, and son of John Smith and Adeline Moore), Florence's mother was Martha J. Moore b. 1853 (m. Reuben Young), Martha J. Moore's mother was Sarah Smith b. 1830 (m. Nelson Grant Moore).

Going back to Thomas' parents Joseph and Ann, I wonder if Ann Brook really was Thomas' mother or if Joseph was still married to his previous wife in 1821 (Matilda Crump) when Thomas was born? I know Ann was married to Joseph by 1824 because that's when John was born, and Ann was his mother.

There were 16 kids in all born to Joseph and Ann. I'm working on getting more info on Joseph and Ann - where they were from in North Western Oxfordshire (Is "North Western" a town or a region? It's capitalized in the history I have.) We have since discovered they were from North Weston, Oxfordshire, England and now it's easy to see how it became North Western.

Here is a bit on Reuben from "History of Vermilion County" by Hiram W. Beckwith in 1879. (Parentheses are mine.)

"Reuben was a blacksmith and was born in Franklin County, Ohio on April 11, 1836. He remained at home farming until he was sixteen, then went away to learn the blacksmith's trade. He came to Illinois in 1850, and settled in the township where he has since resided (either Middle or North Fork Township at that time).

He has since been twice married: first, to Mary B. Copsairt (and then it gives her birth date and place, and goes on to name their children as William, alive, and Theodosia, deceased, then states that he remarried, to Martha Moore and the date, and then talks about Mary their only daughter who died -- at the time this account was written their other children hadn't been born yet.)

Then it goes on: "Mr. Young has held the office of school director nine years. He commenced blacksmithing in Marysville in 1860, and has been doing a goo d business here ever since. He owns the blacksmith-shop, the lot on which it stands, a dwelling-house, and eighty acres of land, worth $1500.00. His parents were natives of Ohio."

A little more on John Smith, Joseph's son from whom I descend. There were three John Smith's in the Marysville/Potomac area when John was an adult. The townspeople, in order to avoid confusion, began calling our John Smith "John Smith English". The other two they called "John Smith Ticky" and "Plain John Smith".

There were also several Mary Ann Smith's in our Line:

#1. Mary Ann Smith, b. 1791 according to her tombstone. Married Abraham Mann.

#2. Mary Ann Smith b. sometime AFTER the 1809 death of the first wife of Thomas Smith, AFTER he married his second wife Elizabeth Lake, who was her mother. The history that says she married a William Langford is probably correct; at least we know she wasn't the same Mary Ann Smith who married to Abraham Mann. So by the time Mary Ann Smith #2 was born, Mary Ann Smith #1, b. 1791 (m. Abraham Mann) was already about 19 years old.

Also, to tie this in with the immigration in 1834 on the Ship Thomas Wallace...... neither one of these Marys' would fit the Mary listed as age 36 on the ship. The Mary on the ship was 36, which means she would have been born about 1798. Mary #1 would have been 43 when the ship sailed, too old to be the 36 year old Mary on the ship list.

Mary #2 would have been, at the oldest, 25 years old when the ship sailed, too young to be the Mary on the ship list.

So we have what looks like THREE Marys' here:

Mary #1 : Born 1791, married Abraham Mann
Mary #2 : Born sometime after 1809 to Elizabeth Lake, 2nd wife of Thomas Smith the Third
Mary #3 : Born 1798, listed as age 36 on the Ship Thomas Wallace in 1834.

Another thing.

It says in the family history that Thomas Jr. (Thomas the 2nd) had ten children, the youngest being our Joseph. There is also a James listed as one of the children, so he would have been Joseph's older brother.

"From this picturesque town Thomas Smith, Jr. received his wife, Catherine Green. To this union ten children were born. They were: Thomas, John, James, Jialo, Joseph, Martha, Susan, Sarah and Catherine. (note only 9 children named. probably one died very young in child birth.)

Of James Smith it is only known that he married Mary Moth whose father owned the mill from which the famous aristocratic burglar Mary Young operated.

Joseph Smith was the youngest of this family.

On the ship manifest there is listed a James Smith, age 52. Now Joseph would have been about 47 when the ship sailed in 1834, so this James fits as being his older brother.

And that makes a lot of sense, since Joseph came over earlier on another ship, so his older brother James I can see coming over then on the Ship Thomas Wallace as the elder in charge with several of Joseph's children and Joseph's wife Ann (Nancy). And with that unidentified Thomas 39 and Mary 36 and probably a few of the children listed belong to them.

Note that the history says that James married a Mary Moth, and unless she died before they immigrated, she came over too. The Mary on the ship is listed as 36 and James as 57, so that's quite a spread. I'm more inclined to think that this Mary age 36 is with the Thomas there age 39. But who knows!

Hi Julia, Our ancestor, Nelson Moore, died on 30 April 1865, and is buried at Wallace Chapel Cemetery. This cemetery is said to be about two miles north and one mile west from Potomac/Marysville. He seems to be the only member of the Moore family buried there except for a James Moore (a Civil War soldier) who I strongly suspect is Nelson's brother. I don't know if they are buried near one another or not. And even though Nelson Moore died in 1865, I have never found any indication that he was a Civil War soldier.

So that is why he doesn't appear with his wife, Sarah (Smith) Moore in the 1870 Census (Newell Township, Vermilion Co., Illinois). I had hoped to try and find Sarah in the 1875 state census for Illinois, but there apparently wasn't one taken in Illinois. I remember trying to find her in the 1880 Federal Census in Middlefork Township, without any success, but that was long before I finally found that she was in Newell Township in the 1870 Census. If she does turn up in Newell Township in the 1880 Census, perhaps she is buried in that township as well. If we could only find a death date for her, then a death certificate (or better yet, an obituary) might list her birthplace in England or give other valuable information. Anyway, if you haven't searched for Sarah (Smith) Moore in Newell Township, I suspect that is where she might be during the 1880 census. Well, I'm tired and have to close for today. Ken

I'm thinking that if we can find the children of James Smith who was 57 on the ship, we'd find that this mysterious Thomas Smith 39 years old, and on the same ship, was his son. I am betting this Thomas is James' son, and Joseph's nephew. Traveling with Mary his wife 36. Maybe there is something somewhere that lists James' children.

Hi Julia, Great Abington, Cambridgeshire, is a different town from Abington (Abingdon), Oxfordshire. The latter is usually spelled with a "d" instead of a "t", at least these days.

What really confused me for a while is that Abingdon is very close to the border of Oxfordshire and Berkshire, and it actually was part of Berkshire for a while. So Abingdon, Oxfordshire, and Abingdon, Berkshire, ARE the same town. I think there is yet another Abington somewhere in England. Very confusing.

Now for Emma Moore. On Catherine's website, there are two obituaries given for Thomas Smith's wife (both Thomas and his wife died in 1891). The first obituary mentions a "Miss" Emma Moore of Potomac, so Moore is definitely her maiden name. I believe that this is probably Nelson Moore and Sarah Smith's daughter Mary Emma Moore (the dressmaker), and I suspect that she was never married. And she was no doubt named for Emma Smith (age 11 in the 1850 Census with Joseph Smith and Ann), who was thus a younger sister of Sarah Smith-Moore. At least this seems the most likely explanation. Ken

Ken and Cat, I think we some interesting information on Chibnes from a woman who emailed me this morning. She lives in Abingdon.

She points out a couple of things, such as the exact location of Chibnes (Chibbinghurst, Chippinghurst) and also that neither Thomas Smith Jr. nor his son Thomas III ever owned Chibnes but were TENANTS there. I didn't realize that ~ I thought they had owned it.

But she is right, according to the deeds I have included below.

Anyway, have a look, here is where Chibnes-Chibbinghurst-Chippinghurst Estate-Manor is located:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=460500&y=201500&z=3&sv=460500,201500&st
=4&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&dn=843

AND, I had assumed that it was Thomas Smith III being mentioned in the deeds, but in the history on Cat's page this would be pretty unlikely in my opinion.

The history says that Thomas III went off to college, displeased his father somehow, and was turned away from his home (which would have been Chibnes), and went to live at the home of his Aunt Mrs. Robert Cooper (more on that name later), then he married a Sarah Fletcher, and then was given a farm by his Uncle Robert Cooper who had thought so highly of him.

Then, he lost the farm because when Uncle Robert Cooper died, it was discovered that the deed for the farm which he had given Thomas III wasn't clear, and so someone contested the deed and Thomas III lost the farm.

Then, he was sent to Flanders by King George III to buy His Majesty's horses. So he is there in Flanders for some period of time with his wife Sarah Fletcher, and then she dies in 1801.

Whereupon he marries Elizabeth Lake (probably from the area of Flanders? Do we have her birthplace and date?), and then when SHE dies, poor Thomas III heads for America where he dies in Northfork, Illinois.

So, it looks pretty much to me like Thomas III never went back to Chibnes at ALL after he was turned away from there by his father Thomas Jr. for whatever it was he had done in his college years.

So all these references being given below in these deeds for Chibnes had to have been for Thomas Jr. not Thomas III. And probably Catherine was still there as well for years.

Which means that Thomas Jr. and Catherine Green were pretty darned old in these Chibnes deed references! Like the old caretakers or something there, probably retired there after farming there for many years.

In the 1798 reference Thomas Jr. would have been about 57 years old if born in 1741.

And in the 1812 reference, he would have been either 71 if born in 1741.

In the 1816 reference, he would have been 75 if born in 1741.

So, we can MAYBE assume from this that the birth date for Thomas Jr. can be fairly well cleared up as being 1741. But, we will find out more about Thomas Jr.'s date of death and burial place on the CD's and Microfiches hopefully. And Catherine Green's death date and burial place as well.

And, the Smiths didn't own Chibnes prior to John Greenwood buying it either - a William Webb and Jeremiah Redwood did. So it doesn't look like our Smiths were ever the owners of Chibness/Chippinghurst Estate at all, but were always tenants there.

Dear Julia,

I had a quick look at the Cuddesdon parish registers on my lunch break ~

31-05-1787 SMITH James, son of Thos. & Ann, Chip.

02-09-1789 SMITH Joseph, son of Thos. & Ann, Chip.

22-06-1791 SMITH Mary Ann, daughter of Thos. & Ann, Chip.

11-06-1793 SMITH Giles, son of Thos. & Mary, Chip.

26-12-1806 SMITH Henry, son of Thos. & Mary Chip.

19-05-1802 SMITH Sarah, daughter of Thos. & Sarah, Chip., bap/21 April

15-12-1805 SMITH Elizabeth, daughter of Thos. & Sarah, Chip.

I assume that Chip. is an abbreviation for Chippinghurst, other entries are marked C for Cuddesdon or W for Wheately.

[Cat and Ken, remember this name Wheatley, there is more on this in another email today from yet our OTHER kind soul in Oxfordshire that I will send in a bit. That email will knock your socks off too. --Julie].

The only burials that I found were:

11-06-1798 SMITH Giles, son of Thos. and Mary, Chip.

17-11-1809 SMITH Sarah W Thomas Chip.

There was another Smith couple in Cuddesdon:

Thomas Smith and Elizabeth Bennet married 27-10-1788. Their children's baptism dates:

Mary 15-8-1789

William 11-12-1791

John 28-4-1793

Thomas and Henry (twins?) 7-2-1796

Ann 13-10-1799

James 12-9-1802

Alice 13-1-1805.

[I am not sure how this Thomas Smith and Elizabeth Bennet are related, but related they surely are, coming from Cuddesdon. I remember that our Thomas III married a second wife named Elizabeth Lake, rather than Bennet, could they be the same person?

continues on in her email:

It might be worth looking in the surrounding parishes especially Little Milton and Stadhampton which would be closer and easier to walk to, assuming that there was a way of crossing the Thame. Marriages were usually in the brides home parish which makes them difficult to find and often the first child was taken back there for baptism."

[I think I remember many of the names especially in that first group of names up there, being on the Ship Thomas Wallace, so perhaps we have begun to solve that mystery too! I will have to get birth dates for those children rather than the baptism dates and check them against the ship manifest list. -- Julie]

Cat and Ken,

Look look what our Kind Soul from Oxfordshire, Keith is his name, has sent us today! He is the one who sent us the Baptism records for Joseph and Ann's kids the other day.

Here is his email.

===================================

"Although you don’t actually say so, my impression is that you may believe that Thomas Smith originated in Wales. Although Wales is part of the UK, it is not part of England and until less than 100 years ago, many inhabitants spoke only the Welsh language, knowing no English.

Smith is not a Welsh surname. In fact until the mid 19th century, the majority of Welsh people did not use surnames, but called themselves X son/daughter of X, ie Evan ap Rice, Blodwen ap Gruffid, etc.

My belief is that your Thomas may have spent some time in Wales, but probably originated in North Weston, which is a tiny hamlet of only a few houses.

[Cat and Ken, the reason he thinks this is given in the records he found listed below of Thomas Smiths found in North Weston in the 1600's. See if you agree, after reading them.-- Julie]

Nearby Thame is a small town and there might be more than one family of Smiths there, but any Smith originating from North Weston, would be almost certainly of the same bloodline.

Oxfordshire Records Office holds the Will and Inventory of William Smyth who died at North Weston in 1650. The Reference No. is Pec.51/2/50. There is also a Bond and Inventory for Martha Smith, widow, of North Weston, who died in 1664. Ref. No. Pec.51/3/14. The O. R. O charge £1 per page for photocopies.

[Cat and Ken, the Oxfordshire Records Office is familiar, I've seen the link to it many times, I know I've seen it in an email from Cat too. It's what I was hoping to avoid having to go to, by buying the CD's and microfiche, which is exactly what they are for. But still we may end up having to contact the Records Office for something here or there, in which case it's only a couple of bucks anyway. -- Julie]

Since writing this I have looked at the website “Our Smith Family” and concerning Thomas Smith, Jr. and Oxford University, I have attached two pages of “Alumni Oxonienses” which lists all the people who have studied in the Colleges of Oxford University over the centuries. The attached pages contain all the Thomas’s and I don’t believe that any of them are connected to your Thomas.

At the Public Records Office which contains the Wills proved before the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, there are Wills for two Thomas Smiths of Thame, one who died in 1760 and another in 1764. In the burial register for Thame the Thomas who died in 1764 is described as “Mr. Thomas Smith”, the term Mr., at this time, being a sign of respect and usually meaning that the person was either rich or a gentleman, or both. However, in the description of his Will, he is shown as an Inn holder.

How accurate do you believe the dates 1761-1839 for Thomas are? Looking at the National Burial Index I could only find three Thomas Smiths aged 78 at death in 1839. These were buried on 28 February 1839 at Puttewnham, Surrey, St. John the Baptist, 25 April 1839 at Beckingham, Lincolnshire, All Saints, and 26 July 1839, at Kidderminster, Worcestershire, St. Mary. However, the NBI is incomplete.

Dear Julia

I can add a bit more info. to your Records.

Henry Smith married Jane Jordan Steward on 1 February 1834, at Birmingham, Warwickshire, St. Martin. At the time of the marriage he was resident in the parish of St. Aldate, Oxford.

[Here is a link to St. Aldate, Oxford: http://www.staldates.org.uk/ ]

Moses Edward Legg (of Bishopsgate, London) married Susannah Smith at Great Milton, St. Mary on 15 July 1811. Thomas was a witness.

[Link for St. Mary in Great Milton: http://www.achurchnearyou.com/venue.php?V=129 ]

Thomas Stevens married Anne Smith at Great Milton, St. Mary, on 28 July 1810. Again Thomas was a witness, so it seems probable that she was another daughter.

[Same church as previous entry]

John Glanvill Lamb (of Reading, Berkshire, St. Lawrence) married Martha Smith at Great Milton, St. Mary, on 23 August 1810. Mary Ann was a witness.

[same church as previous entry]

John Glanvill Lamb was obviously a nonconformist (probably Methodist) and his children were all baptized at Reading, Broad Street Meeting House. (Reading is in Berkshire Parish, which I remember Ken said is overlapping with Oxfordshire at Abingdon?)

Here is a reference to the Broad Street Meeting House in Reading:

http://www.berksfhs.org.uk/berkshire/BerkshireParishRegisters.htm

John Glanvill Lamb was obviously a nonconformist (probably Methodist) and his children were all baptised at Reading, Broad Street Meeting House.

The records list the first child as “John Glanvill & Martha” but all the rest are registered as “of John Glanvill & Mary”.

However, as Martha was buried aged 39, at Reading, St. Lawrence on 14 November 1839, the name Mary is presumably an error of transcription.

Details as follow:

(first date is BIRTH, second date is BAPTISM)

John, Born: 3 Sept 1811 Baptized: 8 Dec. 1811

Mary, Born: 5 Nov. 1812 Baptized: 21 Feb. 1813

Elizabeth, Born: 16 June 1814 Baptized: 18 Sep. 1814

Charles, Born: 27 Oct. 1816 Baptized: 27 Oct. 1816

Glanvill, Born: 22 Dec. 1817 Baptized: 22 Mar. 1818

Ann, Born: 25 Oct. 1819 Baptized: 7 May 1820

William Born: 20 June 1823 Baptized: 12 Oct. 1823

John Glanvill Lamb remarried on 10 May 1849, to Sarah Ann DREWEATT at Reading, St. Mary.

They can be found in the 1851 census, at Reading, as follows:

LAMB John G 67 Tallow Chandler Reading

LAMB Sarah 49 Wife Henley-upon Thames, Oxon.

LAMB Susannah 28 Visitor Holborn, London

BUNCE Charles 16 Neph. Tallow Chandler Reading

PHILLIPS Jane 20 House Servant Hartley Row, Hampshire

Tioga County, PA ~ the one above it is Chemung, in NY

1830 Tioga County, PA, Elmira twp ~ Tioga is next to Chemung, but in PA

Mary Smith Household

1 male, 15-10 (born 1810-1815)
1 female 30-40 (born 1790-1800)
1 female 50-60 (born 1770-1780)

Joseph Smith Household

1 male, under five (born 1825-1830)
1 male, 30-40 (born 1790-1800)
1 female, 5-10 (born 1820-1825)

Thomas Smith Household

1 male, under five (born 1823-1830
1 male, 20-30 (born 1800-1810)
1 female under five (born 1825-1830)
1 female, 15-20 (born 1810-1815)
1 female, 20-30 (born 1800-1810)

1 female, 30-40 (born 1790-1800)
1 female, 50-60 (born 1770-1780)

1840 Chemung County, NY ~ Elmira City or Twp, Roll 268, page 263 (where Thomas/Martha marry in 1844)

In 1840, my Thomas would be 20-21 yrs old, and Martha Sadler would have been 16 yrs; I can’t find a male to fit this age in any of the Thomas Smith household’s below or maybe he is living with Martha Sadler in the family cited below?

Thomas Smith Household, #1

2 males under 5 (born 1835-1840)

1 male, 10-15 (born 1825-1840)

1 male, 40-50 (born 1790-1800)

1 female, under 5 (born 1835-1840)

1 female, 10-15 (born 1825-1830)
1 female, 15-20 (born 1820-1825)
1 female, 30-40 (born 1800-1810)

The listing in the census goes like this:

Smith, Thomas
Seely, Ebenezer
Smith, Uriah
Fatherlee, Timothy
Spencer, Elijah
Strouse, John
Sadler, John

then Charles and Joseph R. Smith

(then seven houses down is Charles B. Smith, eleven houses from Charles is Joseph R. Smith and John Sadler below in between)

John Sadler Household, Chemung, NY, Roll 268, page 278

2 males, 20-30 (born 1810-1820) (one of these could be my Thomas?)
1 male, 60-70 (John Sadler, Sr., b. 1776, 63 yrs old in 1840)
2 females, 15-20 (Martha Sadler, b. 1824)
1 female, 50-60 (Elizabeth Davenport, wife of John, b. ?, sure it's her)

John Sadler Household, 2#, Roll 268, page 263 (it is on this page that Charles, Joseph, Uriah, Smith)

2 males 20-30 (born 1810-1820) (one of these could be my Thomas too, John Sadler here is prob the son of John Sadler, Sr., brother to Martha Sadler who marries Thomas Smith in Elmira, NY; and why my Thomas might be living w. them
1 female, under 5 (born 1835-1840)

1 female, 10-15 (born 1825-1830)
1 female, 20-30 (born 1810-1820)

Charles B. Smith Household

1 male, 15-20 (born 1820-1825)
3 males, 20-30 (born 1810-1820)

1 female, under 5 (born 1835-1840)

1 female, 20-30 (born 1810-1820)

Joseph R. Smith Household

1 male, 10-15 (born 1825-1830)
1 male, 30-40 (born 1800-1810)
1 female, under 5 (born 1835-1840)
1 female, 5-10 (born 1830-1835)
1 female, 10-15 (born 1825-1830)
1 female, 20-30 (born 1810-1820)
1 female, 30-40 (born 1800-1810)

1840 Herkimer County, Columbia Twp, New York, Roll 290, page 122

Thomas Smith Household, #2

1 male, 80-90 (born 1730-1740)

1 female, 50-60 (born 1780-1790)

Thomas Smith was the oldest son of Thomas Smith, Jr. He was born at Chibness in 1761 and educated in Magden College. He being a fine musician led the college choir. He could play any instrument of his day and was a fine singer... Upon the death of his second wife, Thomas Smith came to America and died at North Fork, Illinois in 1841. Is this Henry's father?, and the one that is written in the family history as being buried somewhere in Rossville, probably across the street of the current Mann Chapel.

Thomas Smith Household #3, Roll 290, page 164, Litchfield twp, Herkimer Co., NY

1 male, 20-30 (born 1810-1820)
1 male, 50-60 (born 1780-1790)
1 female, 20-30, (born 1810-1820)

Thomas Smith Household, #4, Roll 290, page 44, Herkimer Co., Little Falls Twp, NY

1 male, 60-70 (born 1770-1780)
1 female, 60-70 (born 1770-1780)

1840 Herkimer County, Little Falls Twp, New York, Roll 290, page 40

John Mann, Jr., Household

1 male, under 5 (born 1835-1840)
1 male, 5-10 (born1830-1835)
1 male, 30-40 (born 1800-1810)
1 female, under 5 (born 1835-1840)
2 females, 10-15 (born 1825-1830)
1 female, 20-30 (born 1810-1820)

Note: John Mann, son of Abraham Mann and Mary Ann Smith, is listed in the family history ~ his tombstone says he was born in 1831; so he would only be ten or 11 yrs old in any of these 1840 Census. I had thought when I saw it, John, Jr. was Abraham's first born son. Perhaps he is a brother to our Abraham who m. Mary Ann Smith ~

Link to History of Little Falls

1840 Herkimer Co., Little Falls Twp

Joseph Smith Household (few houses between he and John Mann above)

1 male, 20-30 (born 1810-1820)
2 females, under 5 (1835-1840)

1 female, 20-30 (1810-1820)

From the History of Little Falls, NY ~ Herkimer County

"Besides those already mentioned there were among those who came to Little Falls between the years 1790 and 1800 and remained here permanently until death, Richard Phillips, Thomas Smith, Joel Lankton, Richard Winsor, William Carr, William Moralee, Washington Britton, Alpheus Parkhurst, John Drummond, Eben Britton and Josiah Skinner."

continuing: "We have said that Alexander Ellice had become the proprietor of land about Little Falls [earlier article]. He was an Englishman and a merchant of London. At his death, about the year 1808, the property descended to his numerous children. Of these Edward Ellice was one. He bought in the shares of the rest of the family, and became and continued sole proprietor until 1831. He also continued the policy of his father, which was to retain the title in himself and derive an income from rents on leases, either in perpetuity or for long terms, with various restrictions according to old English practices.

Up to 1825 there were some seventy or eighty lots let on these durable leases to fifteen or twenty individuals. These leases were in perpetuity, and for each lot sixty by one hundred and twenty feet $3 a year was the rent. In the earliest leases a clause was inserted prohibiting the establishment of stores for the sale of goods, that business being reserved as a perquisite for Ellice's agents. The water power was also under a restriction, and could not be had either by lease or purchase. The Ellice's owned a saw-mill and grist-mill which they leased at large rent, and they wanted no competitors.

They, however, finally became more conciliatory and about the year 1820 they leased a site for a fulling-mill, and in 1824 one to Messrs. Sprague & Dann for a paper-mill. Of course the prosperity of the village was retarded by these restrictions. In 1825 some three or four dwelling sites in fee were sold; one to Sanders Lansing, one to Nathaniel S. Benton, and one to David Petrie. Occasionally afterwards other dwelling sites were sold. Most of the old lessees had several lots. The principal proprietors up to the year 1825 were Eben Britton, Thomas Gould, Thomas Smith, Robert Hinchman, Samuel Smith, Solomon Lockwood, the heirs of William Alexander and John Alexander, and those of John Protheroe and William Morrallee."

more ...The first settlement was made by a colony of Palatinates, but at what time is not known with certainty. That it could not be previous to 1722 is quite evident, and that it was within a very few years after is also quite evident. The following persons received grants of land, and most, if not all, settled in the vicinity of Little Falls within a few years after the grants were made: John Jost Temouth, Fredrigh Temouth, John and Anna Veldelent, Jacob, Nicholas and Andries Wever, Mary Beerman, Nicholas Kesler, Johannes Puradt, Christian Fox, Jacob and Johan Bowman, with several by the name of Staring.

The lots embracing the water power north of the river were owned previous to the Revolution by one of the Petrie family, who erected the first grist mill on Furnace Creek. The settlers suffered greatly during the war and most of them were driven away. In June, 1782, a party of Tories and Indians invaded the town, burned a grist mill on Furnace Creek, murdered Daniel Petrie and carried away several prisoners. Among the first settlers after the war were John Porteous, William Alexander, Richard Philips, Thomas Smith, Joel Lankton, Richard Winsor, William Carr, William Moralee, Washington and Eben Britton, Alpheus Parkhurst, John Drummond and Josiah Skinner, all of whom settled here between 1790 and 1800. William Alexander was a native of Schenectady, and located here soon after Mr. Porteous, with whom he was for some time connected in business. He died January 3d, 1813. Eben Britton settled in the village in 1792 and carried on the tanning business many years.

There is a very old area (Now) in Herkimer County NY. Called Ingham Mills, which is located at the junction of Herkimer and Fulton Counties at the East Canada Creek. Located of course on Ingham Mills Road. Very early on this area was all Montgomery County. This is a very old name in these parts.

Abraham Mann, Jr. and family in the 1880 Vermilion Co., IL Census:

Name	Relation	Marital Status	Gender	Race	Age	Birthplace	Occupation	Father's Birthplace	Mother's Birthplace
Abraham MANN	Self	S	Male	W	50	ENG	Farmer	ENG	ENG
Mary Ann MANN	Sister	S	Female	W	55	ENG	Keeping House	ENG	ENG
Abraham MANN	Nephew	S	Male	W	11	IL	At Home	ENG	ENG
Mary Ann MANN	Niece	S	Female	W	9	IL	At Home	ENG	ENG
Samuel BENNETT	Other	S	Male	W	55	ENG	Farm Overseer	ENG	ENG
Robert PLEDGE	Other	S	Male	W	35	ENG	Farm Laborer	ENG	ENG
Henry CONNEL	Other	S	Male	W	25	OH	Farm Laborer	OH	OH
Benjamin PEARSON	Other	S	Male	W	30	GA	Farm Laborer	---	---
Louise RIGLER	Other	S	Female	W	25	HC	Domestic Servant	HC	HC
Bell GALLAGER	Other	S	Female	W	25	IN	Domestic Servant	OH	OH
Sarah BLACK	Other	S	Female	W	22	PA	Domestic Servant	PA	PA
Florance MERRELL	Other	S	Female	W	25	IL	Domestic Servant	ENG	ENG

1. Thomas SMITH b. abt 1741, m. (1) Catherine GREEN, b. Saintbury, Gloucs., occupation Housewife, m. (2) Mary, occupation Housewife.

Children by Catherine GREEN:

i Thomas SMITH, born 1761 ~
ii John SMITH.
iii James SMITH.
2. iv Susannah SMITH.
v Sarah SMITH.
vi Catherine SMITH.
3. vii Martha SMITH b. abt 1785.

Children by Mary:

4. viii Joseph SMITH b. bef 2-Sep-1789.
5. ix Mary Ann SMITH b. 15-Apr-1791.
x Giles SMITH b. bef 11-Jun-1793, Chippinghurst, Oxon., 11-Jun-1793, Cuddesdon, Oxon.
xi Henry SMITH b. bef 26-Dec-1806, Chippinghurst, Oxon., 26-Dec-1806, Cuddesdon, Oxon., m. 1-Feb-1834, in Birmingham, Warwks., St. Martin, Jane Jordan STEWARD, b. 17-Apr-1815, Haselor, Warwks., 30-Apr-1815, Haselor, Warwks., occupation Housewife.

Second Generation

2. Susannah SMITH occupation Housewife, m. 15-Jul-1811, in Great Milton, Oxon., St. Mary, Moses Edward LEGG, b. bef 12-Jul-1785, Portsmouth, Hants., 12-Jul-1785, Portsmouth, Hants., St. Thomas, occupation Russia Merchant. Moses: "of Bishopsgate, London".

Children:

i Moses Samuel LEGG b. 15-Jun-1813, London, Middx., 15-Jul-1813, London, Middx., SS. Anne & Agnes.
ii Susanna LEGG b. bef 26-Jun-1814, London, Middx., 26-Jun-1814, London, Middx., SS. Anne & Agnes.
iii Elizabeth Mary LEGG b. bef 21-Sep-1817, London, Middx., 21-Sep-1817, London, Middx., SS. Anne & Agnes.
3. Martha SMITH b. abt 1785, occupation Housewife, m. 23-Aug-1810, in Great Milton, Oxon., St. Mary, John Glanvill LAMB, b. abt 1783, Reading, Berks., occupation Tallow Chandler. Martha died bef 14-Nov-1824.

Children:

i John LAMB b. 3-Sep-1811, Reading, Berks., 8-Dec-1811, Reading, Berks., Broad St. Meeting House.
ii Mary LAMB b. 5-Nov-1812, Reading, Berks., 21-Feb-1813, Reading, Berks., Broad St. Meeting House.
iii Elizabeth LAMB b. 16-Jun-1814, Reading, Berks., 18-Sep-1814, Reading, Berks., Broad St. Meeting House.
iv Charles LAMB b. 27-Oct-1816, Reading, Berks., 27-Oct-1816, Reading, Berks., Broad St. Meeting House.
v Glanvill LAMB b. 22-Dec-1817, Reading, Berks., 22-Mar-1818, Reading, Berks., Broad St. Meeting House.
vi Ann LAMB b. 25-Oct-1819, Reading, Berks., 7-May-1820, Reading, Berks., Broad St. Meeting House.
vii William LAMB b. 20-Jun-1823, Reading, Berks., 12-Oct-1823, Reading, Berks., Broad St. Meeting House.

4. Joseph SMITH b. bef 2-Sep-1789, Chippinghurst, Oxon., 2-Sep-1789, Cuddesdon, Oxon., occupation Farmer, m. (1) 4-Oct-1810, in Childswickham, Gloucs., Catherine CRUMP, occupation Housewife, m. (2) Ann (Nancy) BROOKS, b. abt 1797, occupation Housewife.

Children by Catherine CRUMP:
i Matilda Catherine SMITH b. bef 5-Jan-1820, 5-Jan-1820, Thame, Oxon.
ii Louisa Ann SMITH b. bef 5-Jan-1820, 5-Jan-1820, Thame, Oxon.
iii Joseph SMITH b. bef 5-Jan-1820, 5-Jan-1820, Thame, Oxon.

Children by Ann (Nancy) BROOKS:
iv Thomas SMITH b. bef 8-Jun-1821, North Weston, Oxon., 8-Jun-1821, Thame, Oxon.
v John SMITH b. bef 23-Jun-1824, North Weston, Oxon., 23-Jun-1824, Thame, Oxon.
vi Sarah SMITH b. bef 7-Jan-1831, North Weston, Oxon., 7-Jan-1831, Thame, Oxon.
vii Martha SMITH b. bef 7-Jan-1831, North Weston, Oxon., 7-Jan-1831, Thame, Oxon.
viii Edwin Giles SMITH b. bef 12-Jan-1831, North Weston, Oxon., 12-Jan-1831, Thame, Oxon.
ix Elizabeth SMITH b. bef 12-Jan-1831, North Weston, Oxon., 12-Jan-1831, Thame, Oxon.
x Susan Dinah Smith b. abt 1833, North Weston, Oxon., 92-Jan-1835, Thame, Oxon.
xi William Henry SMITH b. bef 2-Jan-1835, North Weston, Oxon., 2-Jan-1835, Thame, Oxon.
xii Emma SMITH b. abt 1839, Vermilion, Illinois, USA.

5. Mary Ann SMITH b. 15-Apr-1791, Chippinghurst, Oxon., 22-Jun-1791, Cuddesdon, Oxon., occupation Housewife, m. 20-Apr-1826, in Great Milton, Oxon., St. Mary, Abraham MANN, b. 4-Oct-1785, Leighton Buzzard, Beds., 6-Jan-1786, Leighton Buzzard, Beds., d. 19-Oct-1865, Vermilion, Illinois, USA. Mary died 12-Sep-1839, Vermilion, Illinois, USA.

Children:

i Catherine MANN b. 1-Feb-1827, Eaton Bray, Beds., 13-Jun-1827, Eaton Bray, Beds., Wesleyan.
ii John Thomas MANN b. 13-Jan-1830, Eaton Bray, Beds., 17-Feb-1831, Eaton Bray, Beds., Wesleyan, d. 19-Oct-1873, Vermilion, Illinois, USA.
iii Catherine Elizabeth MANN b. bef 14-Jun-1833, Eaton Bray, Beds., 14-Jun-1833, Eaton Bray, Beds., Wesleyan.

Catherine and Julia:

I am very excited, because I think I may have figured out the small area where our Smiths lived in Oxfordshire. Anyway, here is my idea (based on 5 pieces of evidence).

"North Weston is a small hamlet along the Thame to Tiddington Road about 1 mile from Thame straddling the first turning right to Shabbington and a track to the left. No church or chapel, but definitely still there."
ref OS 164. Edition C 1997

The IGI shows that Abraham Mann and Mary Ann Smith were married in 1826, Great Milton, Oxfordshire. It would not be surprising that they married in the bride's hometown.

Although I haven't pinpointed "Chibness" exactly, it is associated with Great Milton, and is probably within a few miles of it.

Just 4 or 5 miles ENE of Great Milton is the village of North Weston (occasionally referred to as "North Western") where John Smith may have been born in 1824. That would explain why North Western was capitalized (and two separate words) in the Vermilion Co. history (rather than "northwestern"). Here is a detailed map of the area produced just a year earlier (1823)---The Hamlet of North Weston is toward the west side of the map:

http://www.thamehistory.net/maps/Bryant1823.htm

And if that isn't enough, go 20 miles NE of North Weston and you arrive in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire, where the Mann family lived. So the full distance from Great Milton to Leighton Buzzard would be about 24 miles.

And go about 9 miles WSW of Great Milton, and you are at Abingdon, Oxfordshire (where the earlier Smiths lived). So Great Milton, Oxfordshire, and towns in that immediate area, look like our best bet for where our Smiths lived after leaving Abingdon.

Unfortunately, the IGI record of Mary Ann Smith marrying Abraham Mann (at Great Milton) is from the Oxfordshire Marriage Transcripts and doesn't even give an exact date (just 1826), much less what church they were married in. But at least it's a start. Abraham Mann Jr., apparently their second child, was born in 1829, so the 1826 marriage date fits. The big question is whether these Smiths married as Methodists or not. One of Cat's sources said they were Salvation Army and then switched to Methodists in Illinois, so it's an open question. Ken Kinman

Dear "Cousin" Catherine:

I was looking at your website, and we are obviously descendants of the same Smith family (Vermilion County, Illinois). Sarah Smith (b.1828, England) was sister of your Thomas Smith (b. 1820). She was married 26 January 1848, Vermilion Co., Illinois, to Nelson Moore of Potomac (formerly Marysville), Illinois.

However, Sarah and Thomas seem to be children of a Joseph Smith (died 1853, Vermilion Co., Ill.), who immigrated from England with Abraham Mann. Abraham Mann's wife Mary Ann (Smith) could be a sister of Joseph Smith. I suppose Joseph Smith could be a son of Thomas Smith (b. 1761, Chibness, Oxfordshire) as he would be about the right age. I'm also having trouble locating a town named Chibness. It does sound very interesting though, since John Smith (another son of Joseph Smith) was said to have been born in Oxfordshire (in 1824). Sincerely, Ken Kinman Hays, Kansas

Oxford Parish Map Locator here. (note the Cuddesdon Parish is located in section 7E)

Hi Catherine:

Thanks for the reply. I did most of my genealogical research back in the 1980's, so don't remember "exactly" how I figured out my line back to Sarah Smith. But these were the main steps: I first found out my great grandma was born Bessie Jane Moore on 26 August 1882, Potomac, Illinois, and her parents were Giles Moore and wife Sena. Also did some census research, but my big break was when I got Giles and Sena's marriage record (1878) from Vermilion County Clerk, and it states Giles Moore was son of Nelson Moore and Sarah Smith. Then when I was in Salt Lake City, I found the 1848 marriage record for Nelson Moore and Sarah Smith, and it said that she was daughter of Joseph Smith of North Fork. Anyway census records show Sarah Smith was born about 1828 in England.

The really frustrating thing is that I don't know when or where she died (or where she's buried. Nelson Moore died in 1865, and she doesn't seem to be buried with him. So I think she might have remarried before the 1870 Census (where I was unable to find a Sarah Moore, at least near her son Giles Moore. Giles was still at Potomac in 1880, but moved to Kansas between 1888 and 1895. I hope I'll eventually find out what happened to Sarah (Smith) Moore after 1865, but for now it still remains a mystery.

Cheers, Ken

Hi again Catherine:

I'll get to the SMITHs below, but first the MOOREs. Nelson Moore and Sarah Smith had 10 children (five apparently died as children):

(1) Joseph (b. 1849; married ca. 1875 to Anna).
(2) Milton (died 15 July 1850; infant?)
(3) Giles A. (1851-1895)---my ancestor.
(4) Douglas T. (1852-1854).
(5) Martha J. (b. 1854); married ca. 1874 to Reuben Young, but Martha
apparently died before 1880.
(6) John (b. 1855); unmarried in 1880.
(7) Mary Emma (b. 1857); unmarried in 1880; NOTE: probably the Emma Moore of Potomac mentioned in obituary of your Mrs. Thomas Smith (in
1891, if I recall correctly).
(8) Thomas E. (1858-1866).
(9) Raymond (b. 1860; dead by 1870?).
(10) Nelson G. (1863-1866).
______________________________

Now for the Smiths. I think the most important step in tracing our Smith line is finding passenger list information for Joseph SMITH and Abraham MANN (presumably traveling together around 1832-1833 (or 1834?). Since you are in Denver, could you check sometime (if possible) at the Denver Federal Center (Building 48, National Archives Branch Library)? They have an "Index to Passenger Lists of Vessels arriving at New York (1820-1846)". I would check for Abraham MANN first (a more uncommon surname), and then for a Joseph SMITH on the same ship. Microfilm Number M251 (Roll 60) is for surnames Maho-Mark (which should contain Abraham MANN). Microfilm number M251 (Roll 89) is for Simp-Smith, K. (which would presumably include Joseph SMITH). If we could just find the name of the ship they came on, we could then move on to finding the more complete emigration records in England where they boarded that ship. Anyway, this seems like the most likely way to find exactly what town in England they came from and perhaps other valuable information about the SMITHs and MANNs.

Ken Kinman

Hi Catherine:

Sometime in the next few days, I'll get out my stuff and I can give you the names of the children of Nelson Moore and Sarah Smith. I'm pretty sure I found her father Joseph Smith in both the 1840 and 1850 census of Vermilion County and there were children of the right age in 1840 (of course, both Sarah and her brother Thomas Smith were married before the 1850 census and no longer in Joseph's household).

Ken

Hi Catherine:

Yes, feel free to put any of this information you want on your website. I forgot to mention that Abraham Mann and Joseph Smith are said to have immigrated to New York without their families, around 1832 or 1833. Supposedly their wives and children followed them to New York about 1834-35. So don't be surprised if you find Mary Ann Mann and Anne Smith (and their children) on a ship a couple of years after that of their husbands, Abraham Mann and Joseph Smith. I think I read this in a Vermilion County history book, so this might not be entirely accurate (the years may be a couple of years off, but would still be well within the years covered by the index at the archives). I suppose it is even possible Abraham Mann and Joseph Smith returned to England and made the trip to New York more than once. Anyway, good luck in the search.

Ken Kinman

Unfortunately my little note indicating that Martha probably died before 1880 is obviously wrong. I think that I remember finding Reuben Young living alone in the 1880 Census, so I assumed Martha had died by then. But either I had the wrong Reuben Young, or he was working away from home when the census was taken, and I then jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Ken

From Julie: Abraham Mann and Mary Ann Smith married at the Parish Church at Great Milton on April 20, 1826.

We will be able to see the Abraham Mann/Mary Ann Smith on the Microfiche for Great Milton but I am not sure where Whitney is, hopefully it will be on there too.

A few notes -

"One of Cat's sources said they were Salvation Army and then switched to Methodists in Illinois, so it's an open question. Ken Kinman"

The Salvation Army was founded in 1878, so it's not possible for emigrants from England in the 1830s to have been Sally Army.

Try www.streetmap.co.uk for British places, & www.a2a.org.uk for lots of documents relating to people called Thomas Smith in Saintbury (e.g. 21 Mar. 1795)

Notice to quit. Thomas Smith, farm at Saintbury. Landlord Jos. Roberts New-Comb - in the Gloucestershire Record Office). A2A only gives a reference & summary of contents. Photocopies can usually be obtained from the record offices for a fee.

William Langford m Mary Ann Smith of Hailey at Witney (not Whitney) 7 Oct 1834
Abraham Mann wid of Leighton Buzzard m Mary Anne Smith Great Milton 20-04-1826
Moses Edward Legg of Bishopsgate (the only Bishopsgate I know is in London) m Susannah Smith Great Milton 15-07-1811
- all from the Oxfordshire Marriage Index.

Moses & Susannah had at least 4 children in London, according to the IGI

"Thomas SMITH, Sr. Born abt 1700/20 in Wales, England" Wales is *not* in England.

"Chibness" is Chippinghurst or Chippenhurst. You may also find references under Chibnes. There was a Thomas Smith there in 1814 & 1816 - document references in A2A.

Sounds to me as if your local history has a garbled & embellished account, containing nuggets of fact. Your problem is to sift the wheat from the chaff.

Paul

Cat and Julie:

So where are we on the subject of when our Smiths became Methodists? The one e-mail file which I could not open was the one on Oxford University alumni (it was a .jpg file and WebTV can't open those). But I assume it just confirms other opinions that our Thomas Smiths were probably not actually early converts to Methodism in the 1700's.

The earliest evidence of Methodism seems to be that one sister married in 1810 or 1811, who had her children baptized as Methodists, although her actual marriage was at a traditional church in Great Milton. It seems pretty clear that our Joseph and Ann were apparently baptizing their children at the traditional English church as late as
1835.

So I think that the second family history was correct in stating that they didn't become Methodists until after they immigrated. However, it was only "half" correct, because they couldn't have been Salvation Army in England, because that church wasn't even founded until 1865. So, although the Thomas Smiths lived near the origins of Methodism, I think the stories of early conversion were probably wishful thinking and embellishments by a Methodist descendant.

As for the Mann family, I'm not sure how early they became Methodists, but Mary Ann and Abraham were married in a traditional English church in 1826 (and I think their children were all baptized traditionally as well). I think they probably converted to Methodism after immigrating as well. Anyway, that how's the evidence looks to me.
Ken

Dear Julia

The UK born children of Abraham Mann were baptized as Wesleyan Methodists, as shown in my tree. The reason that he married in the Church of England was because at that time there was no such thing as legal nonconformist marriage, as British Law obliged everyone to marry in the Church of England, unless they were Quakers or Roman Catholics.

Both Thomas & Mary Smith died at Chilworth, a little hamlet adjacent to Great Milton. However they were buried at Cuddesdon. This seems to go against family legend that says he died in the USA either in 1839 or in 1841.

Mary was buried on 4 February 1815, aged 62, which means that she would probably have been born in 1750. Thomas was buried on 27 October 1820 at the age of 73, so he would probably have been born in 1747.

By the way, Chibnes was Chibbenhurst, later Chippenhurst and after the standardisation of spelling, Chippinghurst, which is its name today.

There were only two other Chippinghurst baptisms to children of a Thomas Smith. One of these, as you know, was James on 31 May 1787 to Thomas & Ann.

Dear Julia

In Cuddesdon there was a couple called Thomas Smith & Elizabeth (Bennett).

This Thomas could have been the son of Thomas & Catherine (if she existed) but his marriage does not, again, tie in with the family legend.

Nevertheless, the naming pattern of his children is identical to the earlier generation. Details as follows:

27 October 1788 Thomas SMITH married Elizabeth BENNETT (BENNET) at Cuddesdon, All Saints.

Baptisms at Cuddesdon, All Saints:

15 Aug. 1789 SMITH Mary d. Thomas & Elizabeth, (Denton)

11 Dec. 1791 SMITH William s. Thomas & Elizabeth, (Cuddesdon)

28 Apr. 1793 SMITH John s. Thomas & Elizabeth, (Cuddesdon)

7 Feb. 1796 SMITH Thomas s. Thomas & Elizabeth, (Cuddesdon)

7 Feb. 1796 SMITH Henry s. Thomas & Elizabeth, (Cuddesdon)

13 Oct. 1799 SMITH Anne d. Thomas & Elizabeth, (Cuddesdon).

12 Oct. 1802 SMITH James s. Thomas & Elizabeth, (Cuddesdon)

Burials at Cuddesdon, All Saints:

14 Dec. 1800 SMITH Anne d. Thomas & Elizabeth, Cuddesdon

29 May 1818 SMITH Thomas 22 Cuddesdon

23 Jul. 1819 SMITH Mary 31 Cuddesdon

I’ll let you decide on this, but it seems extremely probable that this was a son of Thomas, by a former wife.

His putative parents Thomas & Mary also had an unbaptised son named Thomas, who was buried at Cuddesdon, All Saints on 13 Feb. 1799 after dying at Wheatley.

He was probably an infant, and it was not terribly unusual to name a son from a second marriage by the same name as a son from the first, particularly if the elder was an adult.

I have discovered a second baptism for a daughter of Thomas & Sarah of Chippinghurst. Her name was Elizabeth and she was baptised on 15 December 1805.

I have also found the burial of Sarah Smith wife of Thomas Smith of Chippinghurst on 17 Nov 1809.

This means that there were three Thomas’s whose wives were having children in the same period.

Quite what the relationship of the third one was, I don’t know, but Chippinghurst was such a tiny place that in the 1841 census there were only three families living there, so there must almost certainly be a relationship.

The year of Sarah’s death, however does seem significant, as it is the year given for the death of Catherine Green.

It was probably this Thomas, who married Sarah LEAKE at Witney, St. Mary, on 28 May 1812, when the groom was described as a widower of Cuddesdon.

No burials can be found for Thomas & Elizabeth in Cudddesdon and I presume that they emigrated.

Kind regards Keith

Julie writes:

Here is what I figured out about the Mary Ann Smiths, and sent in an email a week or two ago:

#1. Mary Ann Smith, b. 1791 according to her tombstone. Married Abraham Mann.

#2. Mary Ann Smith b. sometime AFTER the 1809 death of the first wife of Thomas Smith, AFTER he married his second wife Elizabeth Lake, who was her mother.

So by the time Mary Ann Smith #2 was born, the other Mary Ann Smith #1, b. 1791 (m. Abraham Mann) was already about 19 years old. Julie

Cat and Ken,

Here is some information on Sarah/Mary Fletcher who married Thomas III.

We need to determine whether the wife of Thomas III was named Sarah, or Mary, for sure.

On the web page there is Thomas III marrying Sarah Fletcher, but later on when it mentions her death in 1809, she is referred to as Mary.

There is a branch of Fletchers from Abingdon. The part of their tree, which might be of interest to us is this, below.

They were nonconformist, Joseph Fletcher’s parents having been buried in the Presbyterian Chapel at Abingdon.

Joseph FLETCHER born bef 1750, Abingdon, Berks., married Mary, occupation Housewife.

Children:

i Joseph FLETCHER born bef 6-Aug-1780, Abingdon, Berks., baptised 6-Aug-1780, Abingdon, Berks., Upper Meeting House.

ii Mary FLETCHER born 22-Jun-1785, Abingdon, Berks., baptised 14-Jul-1785, Abingdon, Berks., Upper Meeting House.

iii John FLETCHER born bef 27-Oct-1786, Abingdon, Berks., baptised 27-Oct-1786, Abingdon, Berks., Upper Meeting House.

iv Sarah FLETCHER born bef 20-Jan-1788, Abingdon, Berks., baptised 20-Jan-1788, Abingdon, Berks., Upper Meeting House.

1840 Vermilion County Census, Joseph Smith Household, with a John Smith and Henry or Harry Smith nearby:

1 male under 5 (born 1835-1840)
1 male 5-10 (born 1830-1835)
1 male 10-15 (born 1825-1835)
2 males 15-20 (born 1820-1835
1 male, 50-60, Joseph?

1 female under five (born 1835-1840)
1 female 5-10 (born 1830-1835)
1 female 10-15 (born 1825-1835)
1 female 15-20 (born 1820-1835)
1 female, 40-50, Nancy?

1850 Vermilion County, IL Census:

Joseph Smith, 63, England
Ann Smith, 53, England
Elizabeth? 23, England (b. 1827, she was on ship in 1834)
Susan?, 18, England
William, 16, England
Emma, 11, IL

The 1850 Vermillion County, IL Census - Thomas Smith and Martha Smith household

Thomas Smith, 29, Blacksmith
Martha Smith, 25
Gills Smith, 25
James Wright, 21 (not sure of this one)
Norman Patterson, 18
Mary Fisher, 19
Louisa Smith, 6
Emma Smith, 4
John Smith, 9/12

Thomas Smith and Family listed in the 1860 Vermilion Co., IL ~ Ross Twp

Thomas Smith, 39, England ~ 13,600 acres

Martha Smith, 35, England
Mary Smith, 4, IL
George Smith, 2, IL
Stephen Crop, 16, England
Moses French, 26, Canada
Henry French, 19, Canada
Alexander French, 18, Canada

Note: I only found our Thomas Smith and Abraham Mann in the 1860 Vermilion Co., Ross Twp Census. In the 1870 Vermilion Co., Danville IL Census, there is an Ann Smith, born 1827, England, and there is an Edwin Smith with her, born 1855, probably her son. They are living in the home of Robt Crane 68, and wife Ann, 70, both also born in England. This is Edwin Giles Smith's wife and son, he died young.

Thomas Smith and family listed in the 1870 Vermilion Co., Ross twp, IL Census:

Thomas Smith, 49, England
Martha Smith, 44, England
Mary Smith, 14, IL
George Smith, 11, IL
Bell Smith, 9, IL
Charles Smith, 6, IL

Thomas Smith Family listed in the 1880 Vermilion Co., IL Census

Name	Relation	Marital Status	Gender	Race	Age	Birthplace	Occupation	Father's Birthplace	Mother's Birthplace
Thomas SMITH	Self	M	Male	W	58	ENGLAND	Farmer	ENGLAND	ENGLAND
Martha SMITH	Wife	M	Female	W	58	ENGLAND	Keeps House	ENGLAND	ENGLAND
May J. SMITH	Dau	S	Female	W	28	IL	At Home	ENGLAND	ENGLAND
George SMITH	Son	S	Male	W	21	IL	Farming	ENGLAND	ENGLAND
Belle S. SMITH	Dau	S	Female	W	19	IL	At Home	ENGLAND	ENGLAND
Charles SMITH	Son	S	Male	W	16	IL	At Home	ENGLAND	ENGLAND

From this site: http://familygalore.homestead.com/CrumpFamily.html

Catherine Crump, b. 1786, Childswickham, d. 30 Dept 1815, Hampton ~ m. 1810 Joseph Smith

From this site: http://www.rootsweb.com/~cotswold/childswickham51.htm

the 1851 Census ~

SMITH Henry 54 Ag Lab Childswickham
Elizabeth 46 ? Childswickham
Ann 19 Glover Childswickham
Jane 13 Childswickham
Daniel 14 Ag Lab Childswickham
Phoebe 10 Childswickham
Joshua 7 Scholar Childswickham
Esther 3 none

CRUMP Edward 37 Farmer acres = 309 Childswickham
Ann 34 none given here and below
Jane 14
Ann 12
Emma 3
Neighbour 1
LLOYD Joseph Servant 26 Ag Lab

HAMLET OF MURCOTT

CRUMP Edward 76 Farmer acres = 154 Childswickham
Mary 66 Ashton
Elizabeth 13 Grand Daughter Servant Ashton
Thomas Grandson 12 Ashton
Frederick Grandson 13 Ag Lab Ashton
Henry 26 Ashton
Emily his Wife 25 Usk

SMITH John 53 Farmer acres = 350 Childswickham

Martha 40 Childswickham
Mary 17 Childswickham
Richard 15 Childswickham
William 14 Childswickham
Ann 12 Childswickham
Thomas 11 Childswickham
Charles 9 Childswickham
Martin 6 Childswickham
Joseph 4 Childswickham
Elizabeth 2 Childswickham
Herbert 3 Childswickham

SMITH William 51 Ag Lab Broadway

Elizabeth 46 Littleton
William 29 Ag Lab Broadway
James 15 Broadway
Harriet 7 Badsey
John 5 Badsey

Alice Mann Memories:

Hi Catherine, I love hearing all about the descendants; some of the things I heard from Aunt Minnie growing up are making better sense now with all your help. I suppose that my Uncle Austin was named for his forebear, then. I did not know about him.

Great-Grandmother Pendergrass lived with us; Grandmother Susan Smith and Aunt Minnie and Uncle Austin. My sister and I lived with them from the age of 2 and 3 when our parents were divorced. I thought Laura P. died at 97 but I've heard it was earlier?? She was blind and I remember her eating peas with her knife, and sitting in a little rocking chair. I'm ashamed to say it, but Susie and I teased her a lot. I remember the death of Grandmother Susan, but not the death of Laura P. Must have been too young or not there when it occurred. Our mother took us to Peoria, where she lived, in the summers.

I know the 4 big houses on North Chicago St. in Rossville, were owned by Smiths and relatives. Eugene Smith was a cousin, Aunt Minnie had an aunt of the same name who owned Susie's house and Cousin Stewart's house is just south of Susie's Alice: Pendergrass is spelled anyway the people writing it wanted. In Ireland in the 1600s it was ‘De Pendergass’ or something to that effect. I can’t get my web site to work, but haven’t heard from you so not sure if you want me to work on it. It’s a full time job keeping it up and I let it slide when I’m busy. Here is a picture of Laura Virginia Albert Pendergrass, Patrick Pendergrass’s wife. The picture is small, not sure why it didn’t transfer better, but here she is when she was young: I think the quilt Sue has is her mother’s or her grandmothers, so it would either be Mary Crane Shively Albert’s or her mothers who was Mary Crane who married a Bartlett. I have a picture of Mary C. Shively Albert when she is older, Laura’s mother, above. Do you know why Austin left at 13 to go to California????? Laura’s brother is who he is. The descendants of him I’m in touch with don’t know why he “ran away from home at 13”. There is a big suburb of Louisville named Shively and it’s for our ancestors. I love living where all of our ancestors lived, really brings the story ‘alive’. Hi Cat, I believe Helen and Charles did live there early on. I got the impression Aunt Minnie was incensed about it. I think she felt put upon, which she probably was, but there wasn't any alternative at the time. It was probably the time Thomas and Helen's mother were going through divorce?? I can remember Helen doing my hair when I was little. I don't remember Charles living there, though. He probably wasn't there long enough for me to remember. I expect Grandmother took them in and Minnie resented them. My Dad said he brought us girls to his mother, Susan. Minnie took over; maybe our grandmother wasn't able to cope with us?? Back then families were expected to take care of each other whether they wanted to or not. Therefore, I think Aunt Minnie treated them shabbily. Then Helen hated her for it, as well she should. I really don't know what transpired between them. My dad turned over his inheritance of 160 acres to Minnie to pay for our upbringing. But when he retired, he got the income and lived in the tenant house for several years until he died of lung cancer. Austin had nothing to do with that. He sold his and went through his money in a short time. Then he lived off of Minnie's largess except for the time he had a trucking business. She got married at the age of 40 to Byron Thomas, a widower and retired railroad conductor. Yes, I did love my Aunt Minne, but did not condone her attitude toward others. She lost her fiancé when she was in her twenties; maybe she was bitter about other people's happiness? Who knows. In your 5th paragraph below, you are mixed up. Laura P. died at 95 but Susan S. died at 86. I remember her death. Laura also died in Rossville. Shirley Ann's sister is Sandra Sue, by the way. Laura did not live in Peoria, It was my mother, Violet, that lived there. You would have a hard time tracing the lineage there as she was married so many times. Her mother's name was Alice Coon but I believe that was her second marriage and I don't have a clue as to her maiden name. Therefore, I don't know my mother's maiden name, either. I have some music with Violet Clemens written on it. She had a young son Richard, when she married my dad. He died of cancer at 49. Later when Mother was married again she had another daughter, Barbara. She came out from New York to meet her sisters and when she returned home, she died within a year or so of a brain bleed at age 50. Mother also had a brother or maybe two? I don't know who they were, either. The 'snooty' Smiths didn't like my mother AT ALL, so I never knew anything about that side of my family. It's too bad the way things happened. As far as Susie and i were concerned. the Smith's were very good to us, but I wouldn't raise my children the way we were! I should hope we learned how NOT to be! love hearing from you! The little old lady in the rocking chair (Sue has the chair) was Susan Pendergrass who married Charles Smith. It was her brother, Austin, who ran away. I wonder why, 13 is pretty young, even for a boy. He ended up in California and his mother, or sister, I forget which, spent a month in California visiting them. I have pictures somewhere. Austin is a name from the Pendergrass side. Shirley or her sister, I forget her name, let me borrow a photo album passed down to her of the Pendergrass family. The first two pictures were marked, but the rest weren’t. I will compare them to the ones Sue has to see if I can figure out who they are. I knew that you and your sister lived with Minnie, etc. but Charles and Helen did too? didn’t they? I sat with Aunt Helen recording all she said about her life and while she didn’t like the family (Smith’s) she would answer my questions. It was hard to ask the right ones though, I had to tread lightly with her for fear of offending her in some way.

I know you loved Minnie and looked at her as a mother, but Helen did not have the same feelings about her, do you remember if she and Charles were treated equally as you and your sister? The only time I ever heard Aunt Helen swear is when she referred to Minnie as a “B----“ She said Minnie would stuff the piano with newspaper so she couldn’t play and some other things. I guess your father turned over his inheritance to Minnie and Austin to raise you two, but Tommy had ‘drank his up’ and they didn’t come with $$ so Minnie didn’t like them, or so that is what Helen said.

She also said Tommy, her father, my grandfather, was very cruel to Charles. What do you remember of your childhood? and of them? growing up all together? Helen said the little old lady in the rocking chair was indifferent towards her. She died at 95 and I told Aunt Helen when she was in her late 80s that she was going to live as long as Susan, she scoffed and said I don’t think so and sure enough, she did.

I think I am the only one who actually asked about her life, childhood and the people she knew. Like I said, she was pretty critical of people she didn’t care for, but I think she liked the attention. I have recordings of her talking to me.

Patrick Pendergrass and Laura Virginia Albert had three children:

1. Susan who married Charles.

2. Austin Albert who ran away

3. A baby boy named George Heafer Pendergrass, he died young, maybe as a baby. The Heafer name comes from Laura’s family, I have it all.

Our family founded Louisville. Jesse Pendergrass, father of Patrick Pendergrass, killed his son’s Latin teacher in 1845-1850. The Pendergrass estate is still here, 200 yrs. old. I’ve yet to get in as they are kind of hermits and strange, but I hope to work my way in someday. They supposedly have all sorts of things back to the 1700s, etc. The house is built around the fort it once was. It’s only about ten miles here as the crow flies.

Helen was only 15 or 16 years older than me. She wasn't there when we were real little; age 2 and 3, but later on. If a person knew the dates their mother and father were divorcing, Charles and Helen probably did stay with their grandmother at that time. Helen had been married once before she married Jack Bowles. It didn't work out and they were divorced. I don't even know who it was. Aunt Minnie didn't believe in divorce and preached: "you made your bed, you lie in it". That might have been where some of her animosity came from. Who knows? Helen did not get religious until later in her life; then she couldn't do enough for the church. \

It was NOT a pleasant experience when we were taken to visit our mother in the summers. Uncle Hjalmer (Rehn), Fern's husband, always took us and left Aunt Minnie in tears every time. Finally when we started school, Aunt Minnie put her foot down and said 'no more' and that ended the visits. That was good for us because our mother was NOT a good role model! She would come to see us, rarely. Our dad, even more rarely, until he retired. Oh, well!! Alice,

Cat

what you told me makes a lot of sense. It’s funny how perspectives are so different. She had a bad experience with the Smith’s and did feel less than, I’m guessing. What was so ‘funny’ about it she was closely associated with the church and was very religious. Wasn’t it Jesus who preached forgiveness? of course I never said that, but she did admit to me she held a grudge. Since Helen and Charles were quite a bit older than you, maybe they were getting old enough to be gone, and you probably lapsed over by a couple of years. OK, so it was your mom you visited in the summer, that was nice of them to take you to her.

cat

I don’t know if you will be able to open and read this, depends on your computer and what programs you have, but I wrote this a while ago, haven’t been back to it since. It’s a biography I did on Margaret Elliott. IF you can open and read it, at the bottom of the entire document, I guess I mean last page, I’ve put down how we come down from Margaret Elliott and Garrett Pendergrass, Jr. and he was killed at Fort Harrodsburg.

cat

I still see things to change and that’s why it isn’t done, I keep revising it !!

I made a mistake, it was Susan’s brother (the one in a rocking chair) who ran away to California (not Laura’s). I will have to contact my/our cousin on that line as I find him in the 1880 IL census at 15 yrs. old. While it’s still young, men grew up faster in the ‘old’ days.

On one of my trips there, before she died, Mary Rhea took me around to all the Smith homes, I have pictures somewhere.

Pendergrass is spelled anyway the people writing it wanted. In Ireland in the 1600s it was ‘De Pendergass’ or something to that effect. I can’t get my web site to work, but haven’t heard from you so not sure if you want me to work on it. It’s a full time job keeping it up and I let it slide when I’m busy. Here is a picture of Laura Virginia Albert Pendergrass, Patrick Pendergrass’s wife. The picture is small, not sure why it didn’t transfer better, but here she is when she was young:

I think the quilt Sue has is her mother’s or her grandmothers, so it would either be Mary Crane Shively Albert’s or her mothers who was Mary Crane who married a Bartlett. I have a picture of Mary C. Shively Albert when she is older, Laura’s mother, above.

Do you know why Austin left at 13 to go to California????? Laura’s brother is who he is. The descendants of him I’m in touch with don’t know why he “ran away from home at 13”.

There is a big suburb of Louisville named Shively and it’s for our ancestors. I love living where all of our ancestors lived, really brings the story ‘alive’.

Cat

What I've always wondered is where the Smiths lived in England. The Manns came from Leighton-Buzzard. Did the families know each other there or did they meet after emigrating?? Charles Smith left (most of) his children 160 acres, I think except Edwin whom it was said had already received his inheritance in some other format, (don't know.) The farm George and I lived on when we married was originally 160 acres that Grandfather Smith had left to his adopted daughter, who was?? Florence Maury's mother, I'd guess). At this point, George's father had lost his shirt in the car business with his brother. Therefore they went to farming that ground and bought 80 more acres.

I knew George and I were 4th or 5th cousins, but I never knew him until he came home from the war.